Garret Schuelke (gary_the_great) wrote in a_versus_l,
Garret Schuelke
gary_the_great
a_versus_l

Welcome Post

Yo everyone,

Welcome the Anarchists versus Libertarianism community. I am you host, Gary The Great.

If you wanna introduce yourself, feel free to do it here and now.

Otherwise, let the fun begin.
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  • 37 comments
Libertarians aren't trying hard enough.
Hmmm.

And here I was thinking we were heck of a lot closer to liberty than anarchy.
Liberty and government cannot coexist.
Enable anonymous posting please.
seconded.
Fourthed, but only if they show tits for a login key.

st_reinnovate

9 years ago

ghoststrider

9 years ago

Deleted comment

ghoststrider

9 years ago

st_reinnovate

9 years ago

ghoststrider

9 years ago

st_reinnovate

9 years ago

ghoststrider

9 years ago

"Enable anonymous posting please."

Did it.
^_^
Do you mean the paleoconservative (troglo-conservative?) "taxation is theft" sort of anarchist or the even angrier downmarket-Marxist "property is theft" type?

It makes a big difference: the latter likes to dream up cleverly oppressive ways to remake Man as he thinks he ought to be, whereas the former likes to pretend that contracts are magical and that there's such a thing as pre-institutional property rights.

Arguing with both is boring, and it's a bit like spitting on a fish.
I for one am glad this community exists. Anarchists need to reclaim the term and libertarians can go lick the boots of ron paul or whatever idiot they've got running for president.Meaning that anyone who seeks liberation by proxy is no one I can take seriously.
Any anarchist who doesn't take steps to create the social institutions that would replace government, who claims that there can and ought be a whithering away of the state but expects it to happen on its own or through strictly negative efforts, is no one I can take seriously.

No libertarian worthy of the name simultaneously knows what Ron Paul supports and supports Ron Paul. I don't expect you to know that, as left-anarchists are usually more young-and-angry than rational, educated, or in command of the issues.
Im actually in my mid twenties, have a BA in Sociology and English and regularly take steps to rebuild society in my community: I am active in my local food co-op including facilitating a food delivery service via bicycle for the cafe, I staff and am one of the main facilitators of our local community space which includes an infoshop, art gallery, printmaking collective, a multitude of workshops and meeting groups and is staffed 7 days a week and (gasp) even pays rent monthly. Additionally I work on urban sustainability projects like gardens, free food, commons reclamation, anti-racist action, am a dues paying member of the industrial workers of the world and in general work as hard as I can to ensure that anarchy is taken seriously. Before condemning me as "young and angry" perhaps ask why I've such a vitriolic view towards libertarians.

I speak of the Ron Paul support because he has garnered a wide range of of supporters from across the political spectrum and I am disgusted by the fact that so-called anarchists are openly supporting him. No one who votes can really be called an anarchist.

Feel free to enlighten me on what a "true" libertarian would support then.

Deleted comment

It was a corollary to his statement about liberation-by-proxy. The question of whether an anarchist social order is possible or desirable aside, it's as ridiculous to think one will achieve it by talking and offering hypotheticals as it is to think one will achieve it by voting.

Robert Nozick, one of the 20th Century's greatest philosophers and still probably the libertarians' best, noted that a liberal state is not utopia in itself but provides people the means to make their own. I'm not sold on anarchism, but the means for anarchists to try out their vision (with a few constraints), and I dare say to try it out justly (meaning without imposing it on others), or to implement it bit by bit, already exist even in the USA of 2007. That applies both to the left-anarchisms and to market or liberal anarchism. As long as a theory doesn't depend on forcing unwilling participants into the new order, pilfering the wealthy, or whatever, it's doable.

Want to try out a commune, syndicalism, ParEcon, or agorism? Buy some businesses and some land, get people to sign contracts or even charter a city if you have to. It's not a big leap from there being a New Belgium Brewing Company operating according to syndicalist principles to there being a hundred such businesses, doing business only with each other to the maximum possible extent, operating within the legal framework of liberal capitalism.
I agree that setting up those alternatives is a good first step; that's what a lot of anarchist infoshops, collectives and cooperatives are based upon. It is still trapped within a capitalist framework though which forces people to toil in a structure that is ultimately hierarchical. Even non-profit co-ops still have to work with for-profit companies. The fundamental difference between left anarchists and so-called anarcho-capitalists is that we don't simply want co-ops to survive we want no one to ever HAVE to toil again for someone else. Anything less would be reformist liberalism.
so the fact that many of these by name only libertarians support ron paul makes albanachdemon's satire of libertarians irrational? because he was speaking of the actions of poser libertarians who dont know what real libertarianism (tm) is instead of cirticizing pure libertarian ideology makes him irrational?

and, this does not correlate with satirizing anarchists by stating they are "more young-and-angry than rational, educated, or in command of the issues." does it?
Glad to see someone picks up on a deliberate provocation.

I take issue with the concepts of "pure" and tend to object to ideology, but it's worth noting--and it's so obvious that even the popular press has noticed--that the Who's Who of the libertarian movement, the people with any real respectability or influence in the larger political or cultural realm, including most of the folks at Reason, GMU's Mercatus Center, and libertarianism's epicenter, the Cato Institute, has not thrown its support behind Ron Paul.

Yes, Ron Paul has brought a lot of people with libertarian attitudes out of the woodwork, but as for committed, longtime libertarians, few without ties to the Mises Institue or Rothbardism have given him any support.

Re: About time...

Anonymous

9 years ago

Re: About time...

Anonymous

9 years ago

Re: About time...

Anonymous

9 years ago

Deleted comment

Especially the real he-man macho types like Eric Dondero Rittberg.
If I may ask...

What is the purpose of thy community?
to waste time and fire people up.
maybe so we will gain a better grasp of each others positions before we tear each other to bits in a never ending flame war?
That is exactly what I thought this was going to turn into. Yay for argument culture! ::rolleyes::